Suggestions from a Squirrel Slam Shooter


Since I published my request to end the Holley, New York Fire Department Squirrel Slam, I’ve received a lot of feedback from people who shoot animals for entertainment. Many of them are vitriolic and unapologetic while claiming to be patriotic. Here is an example of some comments that provide a valuable opportunity for us to further examine some of the common arguments in the debate:

“The hunt and event are perfectly legal. And our community supports it! This is America, remember? Land of the FREE. Sorry that you don’t like the fact that we here in NYS have open season on squirrels and raffling off LEGAL guns is used as a fundraiser. You and yours are kindly requested to go mind your own business. Find some other cause to run up your collective flagpoles!”

Here is my reply:

Dear Maggie,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts about Squirrel Slam. I appreciate you paving the way for a discussion of these important topics.

1. I’m not debating the legality of the event. I’m debating its morality. It’s illogical to kill animals and promote gun violence to raise money to save people from fires. Offering prizes to children under 14 for killing squirrels seems inappropriate. Also, simply because something is legal, doesn’t mean it’s right. Dipping tax collectors in boiling hot tar and dragging them through the streets, slavery, and denying women the right to vote all used to be legal in the United States until more sensible minds prevailed. I believe in a much more humane future. You can degrade and demonize those of us who pursue it but you will not dissuade us from working to achieve it.

2. You stated your Holley, New York community supports Squirrel Slam. According to the 2010 U.S. Census, the population of Holley, New York is 1,811. It’s my understanding that approximately 40 sport hunters attended this event with their children last year. More accurately stated, the people who participate in the event and kill squirrels for fun support it. Your views are not necessarily those of the Holley or broader community.

3. You stated, “This is America, remember?” Yes, I remember. I was born and raised in New York. My parents, grandparents, and extended family all come from New York. In fact, my grandmother spent her entire life in Buffalo, not far from Holley, New York so I’m familiar with the area. Simply because I don’t support shooting animals for fun doesn’t mean I’ve forgotten my birthplace or your right to own a gun. I also have a First Amendment right to oppose you using it to destroy the lives of the most defenseless among us.

4. You stated this is the “land of the FREE.” I agree. That is why I believe the only moral choice is to allow the squirrels to continue to enjoy their freedom like you and me.

5. You stated I should mind my own business. I will gladly mind my own business because this is my business. You don’t own the squirrels or the land. We are privileged to share it with all of its inhabitants and I believe they all deserve the same respect we ask for ourselves.

6. You stated I should find some other cause to “run up my flagpoles.” As an American, I have the right to run any issue up my flagpole. Our flag contains the faces of billions of animals senselessly and mercilessly killed every year. This is our flag and we will not lay it down until the lights go out on every animal farm, fur farm, circus, animal race, laboratory, hunting expedition, and puppy mill and every grocery store, retail store, and restaurant stop peddling the remains of animals for human consumption and profit. We fly it with pride, resilience, and an unwavering commitment to justice.

While a squirrel’s life may not mean anything to you, it does to me and millions of other people. If you can recognize the right of squirrels to live their lives freely, you may also realize the same rights for chickens languishing in factory farms, tortured monkeys in experimental labs, confined elephants in the circus, caged tigers in the zoo, captured whales in seaquariums, and skinned foxes in fur farms. The cause for freedom is not limited to people or any species of animal. We stand for freedom for all.

I submitted an attractive proposal to Chief Hendrickson and the HFD Board of Directors. I’m hopeful we can reach a resolution in the days ahead. In the meantime, I hope you will reconsider your decision to kill squirrels.

Thank you again for the opportunity to address these issues.

On behalf of the squirrels,

Andrew Kirschner

2/20/13 Update: All requests for humane fundraising were denied and the Squirrel Slam occured as scheduled. One hunter reportedly dumped a bucket of dead squirrels out in front of protestors and laughed.


185 thoughts on “Suggestions from a Squirrel Slam Shooter

  1. Andrew….how I wish I could write like you. You have the patience of a saint. I myself would have told this person exactly where she could stick her opinions on killing defenseless animals. Here in PA, they still have pigeon shoots, which infuriates me and others. There is no need for this kind of activity. My God, are we not in the 21st century now?? I applaud your dedication to our cause and will proudly support you in every way possible. Keep up the fight my good man….we will make a difference!!!

  2. So glad I found your blog today, on the first day of me being a vegan. It was this barbaric ‘Squirrel Slam’ (what a nauseating thing to call mass slaughter) that finally pushed me over the edge. You are eloquent and intelligent and a lot calmer with these people than I would be. Thanks for giving a mature, reasonable voice to the cause for animal rights and welfare. It stands in total contrast to the mostly illiterate rantings of the shooters and killers.

    1. Hi Julie!! Saw your post and wanted to welcome you to the dark side!! LOL I wish you success in your journey and know that you will succeed!! Isn’t Andrew the best??? 🙂 Thanks for making a difference for the animals.

    2. Congrats Julie! That’s awesome. If you ever need anything or have questions. Lots of friendly vegans on FB that would be happy to help 🙂

    3. Julie, you are going to love being a vegan! So glad you found Andrew’s blog, too. He is a potent force for animals (even the human kind!).

  3. It’s remarkable how consistently the murder apologists fail to address the fundamental issues or answer the questions raised. They wrap themselves in the flag, flawed interpretations of the sacrosanct Constitution written centuries ago and insist they have “RIGHTS” while simultaneously denying those rights to others. Apparently, their rights trump our rights when “RIGHTS” conflict. The logic escapes me though the psychology is transparent. Strident style substituted for sane substance; so what else is new? Keep calm (challenging as that may be) keep talking; you never know who is potentially listening and willing to learn.

  4. My dear young man … you have a wonderful way with words. I sent a letter too but yours is sooooo much better. Keep up the good work!!!! Connie

  5. Andrew, Thank you again for helping our animals have the freedom they deserve. I am sorry that the Holly, NYFD is teaching their children that it is ok to kill innocent animals. I hope they change their minds about the hunt. But, I am not holding my breath! Sincerely. Lin

  6. your eloquence is astonishing …. thank you for your words . and greetings from Buffalo NY …. where those of us who love and treasure squirrels will keep fighting in the hopes of changing the minds , and hearts , of our neighbors in Holley

  7. You are a good person to take up this issue and you are very articulate. Hopefully your words fall on some ears that are not deaf and some minds that are not closed. To me, the real heart of the matter here is killing for fun and the example it sets for children. If people can shoot defenseless little animals and call it fun, what other destructive violent actions are they capable of? From one vegan to another, to all vegans, namaste, JoAnne

  8. They all said what I am thinking. You write with strength and class. Thank you so much for what you are doing.

  9. Bravo, bravo, bravo. Thank you for giving your voice to the squirrels. They are lucky to have you. I truly believe the world is a bit better because you are in it.

  10. Agree with everyone! thank you for writing so wonderful from all of us who have the same view as you! thank you so much!

  11. You dear sir, are a scholar and a gentleman. THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for your grammatical gestations of this stillborn “hunt”….how many redneck idiots does it take to have an epiphany ?? Sorry about run-on sentence, but I am from Oxford ,Mississippi same as William Faulkner….seems to be something in the water here,…but I digress…Thank You for your eloquent response to those less cerebral….

  12. Thank you, Andrew. Whilst we’re all so impressed with your thorough dismantling of her argument – it’s your heartfelt commitment to our cause that I am particularly touched and inspired by.

  13. Picture a world filled with nothing but ANDREW clones! THAT would be the perfect world in which we all dream. You continue to amaze us one by one time after time, dear SIR! Julie … Congratulations on your vegan path ahead. Healthier & moral choices … a win-win for you, our animal kingdom & the environment. Reading the huntress’ letter above just makes my screen crawl & eyes roll out of my head. I will NEVER be able to maintain such dignity & grace as Andrew all the while making his point with such vital & valid information … just unfortunately, these types are all the more close-minded & determined unlike the wonderful children with whom Andrew is working, teaching, giving who in turn are rewarding him just as much with their openness & trust just to list a few benefits. Thank you again, Andrew. I have been wondering if there was any progress or hope at all since you first spoke with an individual at the Holley Fire Department who seemed at least open to hearing from the public. Feb. 16th is fast approaching. I saw two of the precious little squirrels that play in the front yard scampering up our Live Oaks this evening as I was about to head out. I just sat there in my car a few moments unable to move watching them play freely. I sat still in silence … tears rolling down my cheeks thinking of the impending date. My thoughts were nothing close to the eloquent language you have expressed in your response to the huntress on this thread, my friend. Love to all my fellow vegan brothers & sisters, & an extra dose to Andrew & my dear friend whom posted here as well … Daniella, Vegan Goddess & FRIEND! ❤ Janice

  14. i am sorry you feel that eating animal carcass is wrong, however i feel better about eating one that has had a normal animal life in the woods and died a swift death from a gunshot instead of liviog in a cage never breathing free air. Hunting will never stop, the animals are not going to waste and this contest will help save human lives in the long run

    1. Hi Hewett (Hunter and mentor of future hunters),

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It’s my understanding that many people hunt in this event for sport only. Are you stating that information is incorrect?

      How does killing squirrels save humans?

  15. Interesting picture you chose for your squirrel. He is a mixed breed of grey and red squirrel. Do you know how he came into being. Your innocent red squirrel finds a mated pair of greys, he then hunts down the grey and bites his testes off, then mates with the female grey and their species then takes over that grey’s territory. Black squirrels do this as well. If you are gonna protest this maybe you should protest driver who kill more squirrels then these hunters will. Got news for you, everything dies, you, me trees, grass, squirrels et al. You dont think that sunflowers have any life, or carrots or even lettuce and cabbage, If you want to starve thats your choice, however everything lives, and everything dies. In the wild, everything from plants to animals eat and are eaten, its the cycle of life. Even some plants eat fauna, look to jack in the pulpits and venus fly traps and other carnivorus plants. But hey you are right that you are free to do what you want. Thank you for this attention to event otherwise I might have missed it.

    1. Hi Kyle,

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

      I’ve been around too long to get goaded by a hunter. I’m sure you already knew about the event. Elementary school verbal warfare doesn’t affect me. Even if you learned about the event by reading press clippings, such is life. Much more positive awareness for showing kindness to animals has been raised by our efforts. Your attempt to make me feel guilty failed. The guilt belongs to you for killing innocent animals.

      There is no comparison between what animals do in the wild to survive versus what humans do that they don’t need to do for pleasure. You don’t need to eat animals to survive. Even though I’ve heard your argument that “everything dies” thousands of times, it is still senseless. It’s the equivalent of saying everything dies so we may as well kill whatever we want now instead of allowing nature to take its course.

      I’m not starving Kyle. I have thousands of more humane options to eat. My food is delicious. I choose mercy over killing out of compassion and morality. I don’t follow archaic and cruel traditions. I think before I eat. You can demonize and mock me for it but it won’t change reality. You are killing defenseless animals and I am choosing to take a more compassionate path. I hope one day you’re able to respect and understand my viewpoint even if you choose not to subscribe to it.

  16. Don’t ANY of you find it disgusting or even mildly disturbing that the author of this blog elected to replace the American flag in the picture of the Marines raising the flag at Iwo Jima with what I’m guessing is the national vegan flag??????

      1. Killing animals for fun is disgusting, Maggie. Teaching children to have blood on their hands and consciences is disgusting. a flag representing compassion?? we need far more of them, it seems.

      2. Replacing the American flag on an iconic image with ANYTHING just isn’t right. Every red-blooded American should be outraged.

      3. I completely agree with Dee. you should be Ashamed of killing beautiful American wildlife. how can you defend killing squirrels? is that the example you want to give to your kids. Then we wonder why we have shooting in schools and public places, because people like you are teaching our kids that it is OK to kill just for fun and entertainment, in what kind of world you think we are gonna live in a few years with kids like yours? It is such a shame to hear people like you

    1. No!!! What I find disgusting is you and your kind going out killing defenseless animals for the mere pleasure of it!!! Being a retired Navy sailor myself, I don’t find the picture that Andrew used to be disgusting. It represents the compassion that he and many like him, have for all living creatures.

      1. On the contrary Maggie…not ashamed at all!! I served my country and I did it well, just so that you can have the freedom to shoot off at the mouth as you are doing now!! Like John F. Kennedy said, Ask not what your country can do for you….Ask what you can do for your country!! I’m guessing you haven’t really done anything for your country other than kill its wildlife. What I am ashamed of are people like you and your kind!! You feel as though that just because you are a “human” you have the right to kill other living beings. You are the one who should be “ASHAMED”!!!!

    2. Maggie

      It’s very revealing that after I wrote you a detailed reply that dismantled all of your arguments, your only rebuttal was to criticize a piece of clip art symbolizing compassion that has been around for years that I didn’t design.

        1. Well that explains quite a bit!!! No wonder she was so hell bent on her rampage and all!! She probably has some monetary interest in this killing fest!! Haven’t heard a peep out of her since my last comment to her.

    3. Julie, you are going to love being a vegan! So glad you found Andrew’s blog, too. He is a potent force for animals (even the human kind!).

    4. Maggie, even though I love the United States, I believe that EVERY life on earth has meaning and substance and the right to life free from harm from others. I support peaceful humans from ANY country who live and let live over any flag-waving belligerent “patriotic” American any day. Borders and countries are human constructs; if we don’t start realizing that and acting accordingly, there won’t be any world left to fight over.

    5. Maggie, you must have a vested interest in the squirrel kill, and I’m guessing financial, to be so obsessed with it. You are grasping at straws with the flag complaint, since you know you have no real excuses for your lifestyle. Admit it, your bottom line is that you love your guns and you love to kill animals.

      1. For the record, I recently retired from the Department of Defense after 37 years of supporting our soldiers. What have you done for our country?

    6. What I find more disturbing is that the Holley Fire Department has been supported the federal government, by way of FEMA funding, and you have the nerve to tell anyone to mind their business. Our tax dollars and where they are spent is all of our business.

    7. As a wildlife rehabilitator who spends most of her year taking in orphaned and injured squirrels and other small mammals, I am offended to the hilt by your annual “fun killing spree” of squirrels. Has it occurred to you that female squirrels have already given birth and you are not only killing the mothers but also their helpless babies? What kind of a person are you to defend this kind of brutality, legal or not? I don’t have Andrew Kirschner’s patience, I wish there was Open Season on the likes of you who promote senseless killings of helpless lives that haven’t done a thing to you.

  17. Would be a waste of time to these hunters, wouldn’t it, Andrew … to show documented proof of a dear friend who walked out of a hospital telling her doctor what to do with his chemo treatments & cured herself free & clear of cancer through veganism & a few other healthy choices. She is one of the win-win folks where compassion, health & environment magnificently intertwine. Would be a waste of time to point out the vast amount of water, food & land required for animals raised for food only contributing to REAL starving people of whom one mentioned concern for above. Yeah, right! I’m so thankful for the stranger I met in the wee hours this morning as we listened to wild birds conversing with one another in the dark. This compassionate gentleman told me he gave up hunting 25 to 30 years ago content now to target shoot at inanimate objects & enjoys watching animals never again to hunt. Maybe he looked into a pair of bright, brown, beautiful eyes one too many long ago & found compassion. The tone of voice & expression on his face still wreaked of remorse. Bravo to him!

  18. Here’s an image for you, she who is sidestepping the topic at hand. This grinning smirk of a kid (typical trophy pathetic photo) is holding a murdered mother squirrel. Wonder how many & how long they suffered in their demise.

    1. and how many little ones will slowly starve to death in their nests.. waiting for Mom to return ..instead she will be weighed and for her life a child will be rewarded with a shiny new rifle .. sick sick sick

      1. Again…and STILL…perpetuating misinformation to further your cause. The squirrels in this part of the country do NOT have young in their nests at this time of year. The NYS DEC only allows the harvesting of wild animals during a time when animals are NOT having their young. Feel free to look up when open season is! And if you have a problem with it, feel free to write to them. As for kids winning the guns being raffled off AFTER the hunt, the raffle is for the adults. Stop spreading that rumor already!

        If what we’re doing here makes you all so “sick sick sick”, then go back to whatever it is that makes your little lives happy and leave us alone. You like veggies; we like meat and we like to hunt for meat. Get over it already!


    Lem Ward Crisfield

    A hunter shot at a flock of geese

    That flew within his reach,

    Two were stopped in their rapid flight

    And fell on the sandy beach.

    The male bird lay at the water’s edge

    And just before he died,

    He faintly called to his wounded mate

    And she dragged herself to his side.

    She bent her head and crooned to him

    In a way distressed and wild,

    Caressing her one and only mate

    As a mother would a child.

    Then covering him with her broken wing

    And gasping with failing breath,

    She laid her head against his breast

    A feeble honk …then death!

    This story is true though crudely told,

    I was the man in this case,

    I stood knee deep in snow and cold

    And the hot tears burned my face.

    I buried the birds in the sand where they lay,

    Wrapped in my hunting coat,

    And I threw my gun and belt in the bay

    When I crossed in the open boat.

    Hunters will call me a right poor sport

    And scoff at the thing I did,

    But that day something broke in my heart …

    And shoot again??? God forbid!!!

    1. just to clarify, i’m not bradley ayers, the author of “senseless seasons on animals…” and it is a very moving story of transformation.

    1. Gotta love the way all the brave gun-totin’ hunters use pseudonyms. Not even brave enough to leave a real name lest we seek him out and pelt him with cabbages.

  20. Mr. Doe…Your name sounds familiar, I may have met you (or one of your relatives) before. All creatures, including human beings such as you are members of one species or another. The ‘rodent’ classification to which you refer applies to many different animals of which squirrels are only one type. They are, however, at least the seventh most intelligent animal on the planet and capable of and willing to engage in friendly and amusing interaction with our own species. Why in the world would I want to cause harm to such an individual of any species?

    1. maggie .. you are wrong . squirrels emerge from the nests in wny in late april and may but females are pregnant NOW, giving birth in a few weeks ..they need their moms i helped raise 3 orphan squirrels who somehow are about to celebrate their 1st birthday in the wild, despite the despicable cruelty by a thoughtless inhumane human who took the life of their mother . they were born within the first 2 weeks of February 2012 .. that means the heaviest squirrels to win your big prizes will absolutely be nursing mothers . does that make you feel good

      1. Common Red Squirrel
        Reproduction: Litter size average 4 with up to 2 litters a year (if the weather is particularly warm). Mating season is usually during the spring thaw. Young stay with their mother for 40 days.

      2. Common Grey Squirrel
        Reproduction: Litter size average 3 with 2 litters a year. Mating season is from Dec-Feb and then again from May-June. Young stay with their mother for 3 months.

  21. I am a hunter.
    I am a meat eater.
    I am GOING to teach my children how to hunt.
    Do I apologize for any of this? NO I do not.
    I don’t have to. I feel no shame for my choices.
    I feel no need to feel guilty about killing an animal.
    Because I have the ability to think and compare right and wrong, I am supposed to feel guilty for eating meat?
    There is a thing called the circle of life, everything is prey and predator.
    I also do not encroach on your rights to feel the way you do. As a matter of fact, the only reason
    I have commented on any of this is because of the way you people try to make us feel guilty for
    teaching our children how to hunt.
    Everyone saying we are turning our children in to murderers, and psychopaths.
    I challenge you to show me the definitive proof that teaching kids to hunt will make them murder people in the future.

    1. uhhhhh is not pretty obvious all the shooting that have been going one for the last couple of months/years? A 20 year old kid shooting his own mom and 20 other kids in Conn? yes he had some mental problems but that mixed with parents like you who let their kids just kill any innocent creature that you want just for fun, and not feel guilty?
      I am not quite sure you actually know right from wrong, and for people like you I am shame to be a human. Cycle of life? how can you compare the way things work in nature with our anthropocentric, selfish, chaotic human world. We DO NOT NEED to hunt anybody anymore!, we can perfectly survive (and even live healthier like any vegan here will prove you) with a plant based diet and without hurting any animals because we have enough technology to replace everything that we ever took from animals in the past. It is called human evolution but it is clear that we all are in different stages of it, clearly we still have some primitive humans in this planet who think it is OK to keep acting like salvages to all animals.

  22. Circle of Life Justin? You mean circle of death…….You teaching children its fun to blow up living creatures for fun is teaching death………you have to start your children out to kill, using “game” promotions, and rewards to encourage what is a naturally revolting act of blowing apart a squirel… No one has to kill an animal for fun, nor ever even food……its teaching your children to continue on an immoral lifestyle , that is becoming less popular each year

    1. Less popular says who? You? Lets see some stats to back that statement up.
      Human beings are natural born predators, and you think anything you say will change that?
      We teach our children something that could possibly save their life some day. We teach them to respect the weapon they use to hunt, and to only kill what they need. And to be as ethical as possible. You people obviously know nothing about hunting.
      So why pretend you do?

      1. Justin, we don’t have to know anything about hunting to know that innocent animals are being killed. How do you reconcile being “ethical” and “only killing what you need” with the Squirrel Slam?

      2. I saw someone wanted us to admit something…..So I personally admit on my own behalf…I DO love my guns, and I DO love to go hunting. There have been plenty of times I walk out of the woods empty handed, but I am always happy. I can sit in my blind, or tree stand and watch nature, yes WATCH, not kill. I also love my RIGHTS to be able to own my guns, and use them to go hunting, and put a warm meal on my dinner table.
        I dont have to sit here and defend the squirrel slam, I do not participate in it. But I will defend the people involved in it when people like you try to deny them their constitutional rights to participate in this event.

        So to poise another question to you “vegans” ……..

        You call hunters murderers right? And how many of you used to eat meat?
        But now that you gave up either hunting or just eating meat, what makes you any better of a person?
        Does an actual murderer of people become absolved of all his past murders when one day he decides, hey, I’m not going to kill anymore people. (?)

        I may not be as well educated as Andrew here, and I can admit that. I do not write as well, or express what I truly feel as well as he does. But I do know one thing for sure, you will get no where trying to make hunters feel guilty about putting food on their tables for their families. You WILL get heated discussions, you will get them talking to you, but it will go no where, with neither side willing to budge on their beliefs. It really makes the whole thing pointless. You do your part to love nature, and not kill anything, and we will continue to do our part and keep animal population control going. If you leave us alone, we would leave you alone. Grade school lessons here people.

  23. As someone who grew up on a farm it appears to me that not many if any of those commenting here enjoyed that aspect of life. That is highly unfortunate for those poor folks. Growing up in a city or even a suburb does not give a person a good perspective on life. Hunting was something that started for most of us at 12 or even younger as there was plenty of property for it. In order to receive a license one had to attend hunter safety classes. I hunted squirrels often in my teens and they tasted just fine. Something like chicken, as many small animals do.

    Are there those who are not responsible hunters? Of course there are. Are we to lump all hunters together as irresponsible because of the few who are? To do so would be terribly unfair. It would be no different than lumping any population together based on the least of them. I guess that is something that is learned in the city because of the hatred that folks learn living in the city. That hatred that is felt because of someone who had a different religion, a different origin or a different skin color.

    This group protesting this event also smacks to me of still another group of Bambi lovers. Anyone who would kill poor little Bambi’s mom or dad must be terrible because Bambi has been described as having human traits, thanks to the creative geniuses in Hollywood. They would have you believe that shooting Bambi’s mom or dad would be a terrible death filled with pain from one bullet or arrow and tremendous anxiety for poor Bambi. That is because we were shown that in a stupid movie. Hollywood at its finest. Had Hollywood filmed Bambi’s mom or dad being ripped limb from limb by a pack of wolves or mountain lions or any other of nature’s natural hunters of deer while dying an excruciating death I guess that would have been better, according to the Bambi lovers. Instead maybe Bambi being ripped apart while still conscious would have been better still.

    Having grown up on a farm we had barn cats, just as every farmer in the area…if not the whole state and country…had at that time. They were there to control the vermin that could cause harm to crops and buildings. So killing squirrels with guns in Holley in this event takes away from the poor barn cats’ treats. Now they have to compete with not only owls, hawks, eagles and other birds of prey for savory squirrels they have to deal with hunters taking their squirrels away, too.

    My guess is that had the title of the event been different, such as squirrel roundup, then there would be less anxiety. Its like the “pink slime” controversy of this past year. Whoever thought of the name “pink slime” and those who allowed the name to be used should all be looking for work now. I cannot imagine that anyone would like to eat meat containing “pink slime”.

    Unfortunately, the name “squirrel slam” has been used for some time in similar events around the country. A check of Field and Stream would provide evidence of that if those casting a pall on the GALLANT VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTERS of Holley, New York had bothered to check on it.

    There are so many other problems in each community that is home to the writers found here that this event should be quite far down the list. You might try doing something for the homeless to be found in the cities. Are people less important to you than any animal? If so, that is terrible and you should be ashamed of yourself. Or you might put your name in to be a VOLUNTEER FIREFIGHTER, like the good folks in Holley, New York and make the effort to better serve your community.

    Here’s hoping for a good hunt in Holley on the 16th. I am afraid, though, that many visitors to Holley on that day…most of whom have never visited Holley previously… are going to find themselves as guests of the Orleans County Sheriff in their fine jail in Albion.

  24. It is obviously a waste of time attempting to have any intelligent dialogue with Maggie, she is so clearly consumed with hate and power over innocent animals and seems to not care or understand the lifestyle of us vegans continuing to engage her will prove frustrating and no further along in offering her education or different views. Her replies avoid any form of intelligent rebuttal on the issues of fact making me see she most certainly lacks in experience of anything beyond her door step. Lets focus on this event by using our voices and take it to those in government agencies FEMA money supports Holly FD is I believe was stated lets bombard FEMA with using our tax dollars for a town who holds such events hit them where it hurts their money.

  25. Well I feel quite unqualified to comment because we don’t have squirrels in Australia, but that doesn’t stop me from doing so. Here is a link to a MEDICAL webpage. NEW RESEARCH FINDS LONG-SUSPECTED LINK BETWEEN HUNTING AND SMALL PENIS SIZE

    There you go, all you gun-lovin’ hunters killing anything that moves. Particularly poor Justin, who must be so poor that he can’t afford to buy food at a supermarket. Well, how can he afford a gun AND A COMPUTER, “prey” tell?

    And did you know, that vegans don’t need Viagra? Because they aren’t eating all the factory-farmed animals that are pumped full of hormones, mostly estrogen … recognise that word hunters? It’s a female hormone … drink milk, eat eggs, eat cheese, welcome to the world of “I can’t get it up anymore doc, give me some of them blue pills”.

    You hunters may think you are in the majority and poor little self-deluded creatures that you are will continue to think so until there are no animals left to kill. You say that deer get out of control and need culling. Why? Because you insist on killing all the apex predators, the wolves. You may have the right to bear arms, but you don’t have the right to kill OUR animals.

    This is the 21st century in case you haven’t noticed. Get a life.

    1. Haha! Ok, guess you told me.
      Still, none of this changes anything.
      Oh and by the way, yes we do have the right to kill animals, ask the Department of Enviromental Conservation, they are the people that get to tell us when, where, and how we can kill animals.
      By the way, I am also Native American, so my family and myself can apply for special off season permits to hunt animals used in our celebrations, weddings and funerals.
      Bet that burns doesn’t it?
      Until you make the laws, your words mean nothing to any of us.
      And now that you mention it, wolves are off the protected species list, maybe I will go bag one, I can post pictures after I have it mounted for you all to enjoy.
      See, there are 2 kinds of hunts, food and sport, I will partake in both as long as law allows it, it is my right. Just as it is yours to oppose it. The difference is, I can defend my rights without demonizing any of you for your choices. I could care less if you don’t eat meat, it doesn’t affect me one bit, just as my choice to eat meat shouldn’t affect any of you.

      1. Yes, it is difficult when government allows injustice. It’s not the first time. There’s Nazi Germany, apartheid in South Africa. Slavery. And that is why I speak out on behalf of the oppressed.

      2. yes, you have the right to kill animals tho i am hoping the DEC will wake up and shorten your killing season as they seem to not be aware that mothers are currently giving birth at this time, in WNY…. that being said ..smoking is legal too .. not good for you or anyone in your surrounding environment but yep,.. legal to poison people with those toxins. you clearly love to kill. may killing bring you all the satisfaction that you desire and i am so thankful to not be as violent and full of hate for innocent animals as you are . have a great day Justin. oh and buy the way . why is everyone who claims they can’t afford to buy food and have to hunt able to buy bullets and hunting gear to stay warm . ii was checking online and saw the price of ammunition has gone up … seems$17 for a box of bullets could even buy you the meat you desire – animal having already been killed, no need to kill another . whatever . you want to play in the killing game … … peace be with you

      3. Full of hate and violent? And you pass this judgment on me because I choose to hunt? Haha! You do not know the first thing about me. As for this other comment, comparing our DEC to Nazi Germany, seriously?? You have some serious issues if that’s how you feel. And animals are opressed??? What the hell is wrong with you people??

      4. Oh and by the way, Red Squirrel season is YEAR ROUND. Just to make sure you all really hate me, I am also a smoker. Again my choice. Haha! It seems you are all control freaks and its frustrating that you can’t make everyone see things the way you want them to, well get over it, because it will never happen!

        Even if they shorten grey squirrel season, there are plenty of small game that have open season, and fishing season is almost here. So don’t worry about us, we will always have plenty of opportunity to hunt and fish all we want. God bless the USA 🙂

        1. control freak ?. because i made a point that smoking is legal tho lethal . .and thank you for the tip about red squirrel season being year round . i shall be sure to inquire to the DEC about that …. seems pretty inhumane to orphan little ones all year round …. i will never ever understand the joy one gets in ambushing an unarmed victim but to each his own .. wishing deer and squirrels and other critters had guns, too . at least it would be fair ..

      5. Hahahahahahaaa! What makes you guys think any agency you email or call has not heard the same argument for years? Do what you think you can, but remember, you are not the first nor the last to try. Hunting has taken place for thousands, millions of years, we have not run out of animals to hunt, and we never will. You think hunters are a small part of the worlds population, what do you think you are?

      6. Oh no….
        you ‘Sir’ are a disgrace to Native people everywhere. You must honor the animals, not use them as tools for your savagery. Mother Earth provides for us in time, and we must not take advantage of any of her children, be they furred, finned, feathered or skinned.
        Shame on you… you do your ancestors great injustice. 😦

      7. A disgrace to native Americans? I would LOVE to know how you come to this conclusion. I don’t know of any Vegan or Vegetarian tribes.

        Did I insult you in any way? I don’t believe I did, so I don’t know why you feel the need to insult me and my heritage.

  26. Humans are not natural “hunters” or carnivores. We are naturally plant-eating. Look at our teeth (compare our teeth to those of a lion), jaw movement (humans have lateral jaw movement for grinding, predators have up and down movement and no lateral movement for ripping and biting), finger nails (humans have short, weak finger nails, predators have long, strong sharp claws). For more info and a great video:

    1. Where do I start? Hmmmmm…..
      How about the fact that your link starts with the word conspiracy in it. Haha!
      Ok and now, I don’t know where you went to school, but your teachers should be fired. Humans are indeed an Alpha predator.
      And we also have up and down jaw movement as well, for ripping and tearing, along with our pointed canine teeth.
      I think you should find a more reliable source for your information, the conspiracy sites are nothing but theory. Just because I said I wasnt well educated does not mean I am an idiot.

      1. Hi Justin,

        Yes, I can see your point. The name of the site is a bit “inflammatory” for lack of a better word. How ’bout this: Humans are natural pant eaters:

        Please, use no weapons, no tools and run after a squirrel and catch it and kill it with your mouth and eat the entire carcass – guts, eyes, brains, anus – raw, no cooking. That is what a natural carnivore would do.

      2. Yeah Justin prove us how human beings are natural born predators. I dare you to try this, put a bunny and an apple with a 5 year old kid. If he eats the bunny and plays with the apple you win!

  27. “Life is as dear to the mute creature as it is to a man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not to die, so do other creatures.” ~His Holiness the Dalai Lama

  28. Hi Justin,

    You wrote, “I saw someone wanted us to admit something…..So I personally admit on my own behalf…I DO love my guns, and I DO love to go hunting. There have been plenty of times I walk out of the woods empty handed, but I am always happy. I can sit in my blind, or tree stand and watch nature, yes WATCH, not kill. I also love my RIGHTS to be able to own my guns, and use them to go hunting, and put a warm meal on my dinner table.

    I dont have to sit here and defend the squirrel slam, I do not participate in it. But I will defend the people involved in it when people like you try to deny them their constitutional rights to participate in this event.

    So to poise another question to you “vegans” ……..

    You call hunters murderers right? And how many of you used to eat meat?
    But now that you gave up either hunting or just eating meat, what makes you any better of a person?
    Does an actual murderer of people become absolved of all his past murders when one day he decides, hey, I’m not going to kill anymore people. (?)

    I may not be as well educated as Andrew here, and I can admit that. I do not write as well, or express what I truly feel as well as he does. But I do know one thing for sure, you will get no where trying to make hunters feel guilty about putting food on their tables for their families. You WILL get heated discussions, you will get them talking to you, but it will go no where, with neither side willing to budge on their beliefs.

    It really makes the whole thing pointless. You do your part to love nature, and not kill anything, and we will continue to do our part and keep animal population control going. If you leave us alone, we would leave you alone. Grade school lessons here people.”

    Justin –

    Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

    1. I’m glad to learn there are times when you appreciate nature and allow animals to live their natural lives.

    2. I do not wish to deny you your right to own a gun. I advocate for plant-based eating, not suppression of your right to gun ownership. I hope you didn’t perceive any of my comments to indicate otherwise. There is a difference between owning a gun and using it to kill animals.

    3. I do not support hunting for food or sport. If given the option between hunting for food or buying animals from farms, I prefer the former because the length of suffering is reduced but neither is preferable to me.

    4. I’m confused as to whether the squirrel slam hunters are eating the squirrels or simply killing them for sport — perhaps it’s a combination of both. I’ve seen and read interviews where Holley residents call them glorified rats. It’s hard to imagine they are all eating them given that description.

    5. I don’t call hunters or people who eat animals “murderers.” It may feel good to say and it may be true but I don’t think it’s productive. Unfortunately, someone who eats animals doesn’t see it that way and I’m afraid it will turn them off and cause them to label vegans as extreme. I believe in a much more engaging approach which includes discussing the benefits of plant-based eating to animals, people, and our environment in a cordial manner.

    6. Please do not say you are not as well educated as me. I wish everyone to feel like they are on an equal playing field when we discuss these issues. Simply because I went to school longer than you doesn’t give me moral authority or make me right about everything. While I disagree with your position, I understand it clearly.

    7. We agree that disrespectful discussions where each side demonizes the other usually isn’t productive. I wonder why you decided to speak in ways inconsistent with this position in other parts of this thread.

    8. I think it’s misguided for you to use “animal overpopulation” as an excuse to justify killing innocent animals in the wild. I hope you will read my response to this comment in the original article.

    9. Finally, please don’t expect us to leave you alone. You’re killing animals when you don’t need to kill them to survive. While you believe it is your choice to end their lives, we know it is our right to defend them.

    I stand by my initial remarks. Teaching children to kill animals with guns to raise money for fire fighters to save lives doesn’t make sense. Fire fighters should be role models. Imagine the lessons children would learn if the fire fighters hosted an event to teach children how to show kindness to animals.

    Justin, I would like to invite you to come on my radio show to discuss these issues. Please let me know if you’re interested.

    You may find my story insightful and disarming:


    Andrew Kirschner

  29. Justin, Andrew Kirshner was extremely pleasant in his all-encompassing reply to you. However, Justin, you really don’t bring out the best in people, do you? You want to rip and kill and tear out the throats of anyone who opposes the killing of animals. And you say that you are Native American? Well, in that case, you should be doubly ashamed. Native Americans are supposed to cherish the earth and her creatures.

    You stated “Hunting has taken place for thousands, millions of years, we have not run out of animals to hunt, and we never will.” How can you compare hunting on today’s scale against hunting by the original hunter/gatherers? They didn’t have high-powered weapons. And you say you are a Native American? How about you go hunting with a regular bow and arrows. Not some fandangled, high-powered, tempered machine bow. Let’s see how you fare against the wolves then.

    As for “not run out of animals”? What, are you living under a rock? Wolves are on the endangered species list, yet hunters go out of their way to gut-shoot them so they suffer even more atrociously.

    But you go ahead Justin. You keep up your slash and burn and scorched earth hunting. Within your lifetime, which will be short and will end on machinery because you smoke, you will see that the earth cannot sustain hunting of the magnitude it is at now. You won’t have to worry about eating meat either because your food will be sucked through a straw. Won’t need those canines then will ya?

    I have nothing but contempt for you and your fellow hunters. You are ignorant and are so out-of-touch with what the earth is telling all of us. You don’t respect Mother Nature and ultimately, she will let you know how she feels.

    1. Actually, I do hunt with a recurve bow. My bow was handed down to me, and I will hand it down as well. So don’t sit there and insult me like that, you know nothing about me. Yes I do also hunt with a gun, a Mossberg 12g to be exact, I use no magnification scope, but it does have a red dot, I’m not out to hurt animals, I always take one shot, if wounded I track and put it down as fast as possible, I don’t want to see them in pain. You all have judged me to be a heartless individual, and I am far from that. I don’t want to rip anyone’s throat out, and I don’t hold any hate for any of you. I won’t judge your life style, and I wish you wouldn’t judge ours. I may have said a few things to make you think this way about me, but I am still a man, and I can only take so much, people telling me what I do is murder, and that my children will grow up to be killers and psychopaths, yeah it gets me a little angry, and I say things in the heat of the moment, we have all been there. All I ask is all if us stop judging each other and let everyone live how they want. Stop the pointless fighting, no one is going to win.

      1. justin . i would love an explanation . you are not out to hurt animals but you shoot them with bullets and a bow and arrow and if wounded put them out of their misery as soon as possible??????? get a camera. shoot all you want and then you will NOT hurt a single animal . Is this just a game to you?? !!!!… the back and forth, not the squirrel slam … you leave me speechless and i am not often speechless!!

  30. Andrew — What a pleasure to read your beautiful writing. As a vegan, I agree with everything you have said here. Do you know Marla Rose, Vegan Feminist Agitator? I think you two would truly appreciate each other. And I truly appreciate that people like you and Marla use your passion and intelligence to speak for the animals. It gives me hope.

  31. Justin, “we have not run out of animals to hunt, and we never will.” are you on crack, dude? Do you know how many species of animal are going extinct this very minute? Do some research before you open your mouth. Andrew, you are a wonderful person with a big heart, I Thank you for your beautiful letter and so do the Squirrels and others.

    1. As I stated once already, this is pointless. None of you will ever make me feel guilty about hunting, eating meat, or teaching my children gun safety. So why should I even keep trying? None of you will change your point of view on the situation, so what would be the point of continuing with this?

        1. Hello All. One of the contributors to this conversation remarked earlier today that Maggie has gone silent on this blog. Maggie is not silent in the least. One of the three names on the flyer of the event is Wayne Moyer … most likely her spouse, & you know they’re in this for the full extent of the ride all the more “armed” due to all the controversy & focus. To paraphrase, one article suggests Holley is now on the map of many minds that have never heard of this small community prior. If the media has indeed rushed in interviewing just about anybody breathing … well, good!

          Maggie is busy over on Facebook having had a few field days with her cronies laughing it up & commenting with quite the loose-lipped remarks at the vegan animal lovers. The squirrels are now called “tree rats” & we are “tree rat lovers.” She is switching out different pics of herself holding up the head of a once-beautiful but now dead & bloody doe, & there are at least two of this nature. The current pic at the time of my post here is herself with fairly large dead fish. Who knows what species she’ll post next? She seems to be enamored that we’re, ” … watching everything I do.” Is she truly enjoying the attention? I am not friended with this woman which means her wall is wide open to public viewing, so that would suggest she is indeed enjoying some of the focus if only a means to gut us verbally & visually should any of us click her page. To ask us, “How do you like my profile picture now?” She’s ticked & striking back. I actually get that, & that’s where I stop. The day hunting desires were passed out … I was totally absent not of this galaxy.

          I have not read all of her comments nor shall I. From glancing here & there a few times, I would say Maggie is first & foremost madder than hell & shocked that so many have made such a fuss. I believe this community is a bit flabbergasted over such controversy unable to grasp how “just squirrels” can create such a ruckus. At the very least, she’s been caddy & condescending. Again, I get that in taking a step back & looking at the big picture the best I can within my own rock solid stance for the squirrels. I would be rattled as well where some of those opposing this event have crossed a line. Isn’t that always the case? Reportedly there are actually death threats now involved towards a person or persons involved with this event. Death threats are ludicrous!. To take such passion for the squirrels to this level … the perpetrators might as well pull the triggers personally. Never fails that there will always be those who defeat our purpose as if these little squirrels & all hunted animals aren’t challenged enough? These few overzealous individuals didn’t attend the SCHOOL OF ANDREW. They do not speak or act for all of us, & we shouldn’t be all lumped into one category of crazed “tree rat lovers” based on the idiocy of a few dimwits. I wish he had a LIFE CLASS mandatory for every soul in every language from sea to shining sea in the SCHOOL OF ANDREW, but that’s from my own hypothetical book of ANDREW’S PERFECT WORLD … a complete myth. So back to reality. Maggie writes quite well & expresses herself with lots of information she believes to be fact coupled with her strong opinions. I have seen many of those involved with this event & hunting in general expressing comments that convey to me they are unable to comprehend that place we live & breathe for the animals where no amount of training for gun safety, licenses, legalities, family traditions, eating the meat, using all the animal parts & anything from that tidy little box will justify this event.

          What matters to us, the animal rights activists, are the LIVES OF THE SQUIRRELS. To these hunters, what does NOT matter are the LIVES OF THE TREE RATS, Maggie’s nickname for these dear squirrels. Some have expressed they are “just rodents” as if that’s justification??? That’s where most of our opposition seems unable to connect these dots that we CARE about the lives of each individual critter no matter their excuses of overpopulation, balance of nature, & all that yada-yada. And most of us are unable to conceive how anyone can look into these beautiful faces with shiny, bright brown eyes & end their lives with a bow & arrow, bullet or any weapon. I am void of gray areas. Alive … Dead. Dead is dead. Over. These little lives & souls matter to us no matter when or where.

          The hunters tell us to mind our own business. That’s exactly what we’re doing speaking out for these innocent victims that have zero voice of what is to come. THAT makes them our business. Some have told us to go worry over bigger problems. Not required but I can attest to the fact that numerous animal rights activists do great work in all sorts of areas for humans, animals & the environment, the latter gravely impacting both. A beautiful animal just sitting there in the sunlight … indeed … does not compute to do the deed. That someone can find any degree of pleasure in these kills & ALWAYS SMILING in the trophy pictures like a gold medal was just achieved in the Olympics??? I have seen too many clips of hunters at the moment of the kill & immediately thereafter entering a state best described from the outside looking in as emotional orgasmic euphoria. If this is normal … then I’m a frickin’ Martian & damn glad about it. There is no thrill to kill in this girl!

          Last week I did some research with keywords “hunter’s remorse” after finding a favorite poem of old, “A Hunter’s Remorse” by Lem Ward Crisfield. Posted that poem, animal friends, on this blog a few days ago. Certainly one to cherish & pay forward. I read several blogs where real human beings experienced remorse & were reaching out to other hunters. What a bell some of them can never unring wishing they’d never been there/done that.

          Key phrase “Squirrel Slam” brings up some horrid images. Found a different very disturbing one today. This is Andrew’s web site … out of respect for him, I will zip the lips about these pictures only to say that I’m going to post at least one now on my own page just as Maggie has done. She & I might have a lot in common, maybe … maybe not … but these dead animal pictures she posts & I will soon be posting are from such opposite ends of the spectrum in purpose there is no measurement other than infinity to fill the void. Done. Time to go check the water bowls I leave out for TREE RATS.

      1. Justin, I believe you said you don’t participate in the Squirrel Slam, so why do you object to us trying to stop it? And no one is forcing you to participate in this discussion, but I’m glad you’re here. I would just ask you to take your own advice when it comes to wildlife, since they have as much right to life as we do: “If you leave us alone, we would leave you alone.”

      2. See what I am getting at? Murders, serial killers, redneck idiots….. It’s all insults and does nothing to further your cause at all.

        1. Hi Justin,

          You seem intent on responding to and focusing on people who insult you rather than those who wish to engage you in thoughtful dialogue. Please consider replying to my posts. I haven’t called you any names.

  32. No you did not directly, but at the same time you did say, the only reason to teach children to hunt is to breed serial killers. That comment puts you at the same level as the ones that call us monsters and murders.

    1. Justin,

      Please quote me correctly. I stated, “Offering prizes to children under 14 for killing squirrels is only advisable if your intent is to breed serial killers.” It was my impression at the time the event was solely for sport. There is a well-documented link between people who abuse animals for fun and those who go on to kill people. I have since learned that some people actually eat the squirrels. Regardless, I don’t support teaching children to shoot animals.

      It’s interesting that even though I have repeatedly extended an olive branch for civil discussion, you continue to focus on other issues. I don’t think you want to engage in meaningful dialogue because I think you realize that your actions are indefensible.

      1. It’s not that my actions are indefensible, there is no meaningful dialogue to be had. You don’t agree with my choices, and I don’t care about your choices. Simple really. I don’t judge you for being a vegan, but I am judged because I hunt and eat meat. You can sit there and tell me that you are not judging anyone, but this blog alone states otherwise.
        We don’t ask you to approve of our lifestyle, we just want to be able to LIVE how we want to, but its people like you that do not respect that. I’m done. I will always hunt, I will always kill, but I will not bring myself to this low of a level again. I don’t have to defend my personal choices to any of you, I will live my life, and teach my children how I feel I should.

        1. Yes, Justin, shooting animals for sport or even eating them is indefensible. Perhaps one day you will look back on your comments on this thread in disbelief. Many of us used to believe it was all right until we informed ourselves about animals and our ability to survive and thrive on plant-based foods. You may find this article instructive.

          You state you don’t judge us for being a vegan. That’s like a thief telling someone he doesn’t judge him for not robbing a bank. It doesn’t make any sense Justin. There is nothing to judge us about because we are taking the more humane and moral path. Regardless, I’m not interested in judging you. I want to provide you information so you might give your decisions more thought and I want to learn more about your thought process so I can better understand it. I understand you’re not ready at this time. I will hold out hope that you will have a change of heart in the future. In the meantime, I hope you will read the guide I posted that provides other easy ways to show kindness towards animals. Thank you for keeping an open mind.

  33. Justin, I don’t believe that you have said your final goodbye. And that’s why I am saying this. You have tried so hard to defend yourself and your stance on hunting. Why? Why have you tried so hard to defend yourself and convince us that what you do is right? No animal activist will never agree with you and no vegan can understand you. Someone said earlier about the euphoria a hunter feels when he kills an animal. Regardless of what type of animal, I cannot even begin to comprehend this. I CAN understand when a photographer gets it JUST right and nails that perfect CAMERA shot.

    You will never win, I hope you realise that. There are always going to be people who will oppose you and your kind, and we are growing in number every day.

    Andrew has offered you many olive branches. It’s a shame you won’t even enter into conversation with him and discuss his many links with you. He even offered you the opportunity to speak on his radio show. Are you frightened that you may actually see the other side of the fence if you were to accept it? Or are you only brave when you have a weapon in your hands?

  34. poor poor little squirrels, bla bla bla. you know, there are over 16 million starving kids in this country and you guys are worried about squirrels. I am a hunter, my sons are hunters and very proud of it. I dont need your approval for what I do, and really dont care what you think. Last year I donated 2 deer for the “hunters for the hungary” program which supplied about 300 meals to people so they could eat that day. In general hunters are very giving people that will help out people when needed, so I think the term redneck idiots is a slap in the face. Let me ask all of you, what did you do last year to help someone in need? Or let me guess, not enough national spotlight for you all.

    And to the ones that even want to compare parents teaching thier kids to shoot and hunt are just raising the next serial killers. I for one would love to see the stats on that one. How many serial killers were brought up in a hunting family? There are bad people from all walks of life but you really showed your intelligence with that stement.

    So, next time you are walking down the street dont be so pissed at the person wearing a mink coat, be mad cause you just passed a kid that didnt eat today.

    1. And as far as justin doing the radio show, you really wonder why he wont? It has nothing to do with being afraid. But it wont be a two way street. He has to either agree with him or be wrong. And that is kinda unfair isn’t it? Are you frightened that you may actually see the other side of the fence if you were to accept it?

      1. Hi Steve,

        Listen to one of my radio shows and you will gain a better understanding of my demeanor. Read my posts on this thread and ask yourself if I seem like a confrontational person or someone who is interested in finding common ground. I extend the same invitation to you that I extended to Justin.

        I do all of my activism as a volunteer, including this blog and my radio show. I make zero money doing it. I have no books, movies, t-shirts, or anything else for sale. All of my work is as a volunteer so you can rest assured I have no ulterior motives.

        Here is a sample of one of my shows if you’re interested in getting to know me better:

        I look forward to hearing from you.



      2. Don’t EVEN go there about fur bucko! The torture of LIVE animals is a whole separate planet! To see animals electrocuted through the anus while still alive … to see them dipped into boiling water with the fur slid off while still breathing … to see them strung up by all four feet ripped of their hide while blinking & tongues hanging in agony from their mouths … & etc. Don’t EVENNNNN think you know what the blooming hell you’re talking about. I won’t go into further comments as you are an obvious waste of time. I did immediately find just one link of many. Screen lit up like a Christmas tree when I searched for what you’ve asked. Here’s one I just chose randomly. Go ahead. You’ll have some nasty retort. Talk to the hand. Gonna go out & enjoy looking at free, happy squirrels. Such pleasure.

      3. Steve, you are 100% correct. I am scared of one thing and one thing only, and that is our current government.
        As far as me seeing the other side of the fence, I do believe I have seen it.
        On researching notable vegetarians a surprising name came up……Adolph Hitler. Hmmm, I guess it’s not just meat that makes people murderous psychopaths.

        I wouldn’t do this radio show simply because none of you will see it my way, and none of us will see it yours. It would be pointless. Much as this whole discussion has become.

        And to the lady that posted the animal abuse/serial killer link, maybe someone should clarify the difference between hunting and animal abuse. We are hunting and eating, not hurting animals just to see them in pain like these future psychopaths are. I know the difference, you should too.

    2. Hi Steve,

      Thank you for joining the discussion. Do you ever hunt for sport or always for food? I think there was some confusion over the purpose of the event not that it matters so much but I was initially under the impression it was a sport-hunting only event. I have since learned some people actually eat the squirrels even though many of them call them “tree rats.” I still can’t sport teaching 14 year old children to shoot animals and use guns.

      As I have mentioned earlier, I can’t endorse either endeavor (hunting for food or sport) because I support plant-based eating, however, if given the choice between hunting for food and buying animals from a factory farm, for example, I prefer the former option since the animals don’t live a life of confinement and abuse prior to their untimely deaths when you shoot them with your gun.

      I’m sorry that you don’t value the lives of animals. I used to think in a similar way although fortunately I learned to show respect for all of the earth’s inhabitants. Of course, I’m sure you realize you don’t need to eat animals to survive.

      In terms of helping people in addition to animals, my reply here should answer your question.

      I remain hopeful that one day you will have a change of heart.



    3. Don’t EVEN go there about fur bucko! The torture of LIVE animals is a whole separate planet! To see animals electrocuted through the anus while still alive … to see them dipped into boiling water with the fur slid off while still breathing … to see them strung up by all four feet ripped of their hide while blinking & tongues hanging in agony from their mouths … & etc. Don’t EVENNNNN think you know what the blooming hell you’re talking about. I won’t go into further comments as you are an obvious waste of time. I did immediately find just one link of many. Screen lit up like a Christmas tree when I searched for what you’ve asked. Here’s one I just chose randomly. Go ahead. You’ll have some nasty retort. Talk to the hand. Gonna go out & enjoy looking at free, happy squirrels. Such pleasure.

  35. Justin … At the very beginning of that link says: “Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer have more in common than just being serial killers. These three murderers are also connected by the fact that each of them tortured and/or killed animals during their childhoods.” AND OR TORTURED AND/OR KILLED ANIMALS DURING THEIR CHILDHOOD. Hunting equals killing. You are correct. We will not agree.

    1. Does it also say that those 3 men suffered from some form of mental disorder also? Because they obviously did. You want to group every hunter into the same category with them, and that is what bothers me, and it’s people like you that make me defend my way of life, when I shouldn’t have to.

      1. Justin … I do not have time nor desire to dissect the multitude of resources & studies available on this topic about serial killers & the abuse/killing of animals that I have researched in the past. No matter my efforts, you are pre-programmed to disagree were I to do so. I could paint a bright blue blob from edge to edge on a blank sheet of paper only to have you & other hunters tell me there is no blue on the page whatsoever if we were to measure how differently we see, feel, think & act on the topic of KILLING ANIMALS.

        The three mentioned in this particular link I posted are amongst some of the most notorious of serial killers, & therefore, usually the given examples. I don’t believe you’re a serial killer & haven’t personally grouped you or anyone by name in any category other than that of being hunters. You probably have some wonderful qualities & have done & will continue to do some great things in your life past, present & future; however, by all of your admissions, you ARE a hunter, you DO & WILL continue to teach your children to hunt & will continue to KILL animals. You did say KILL.

        I talked at great length in another post on here in my best phrasing possible to express my inabilities to grasp the thrill of the kill. To see an unknowing creature, blinking, nibbling, drinking, breathing one second lying injured or bloody dead on the ground the next where the person(s) responsible are basking in the glory of the death is so beyond my comprehension to such depths, I cannot describe the void. I deplore hunting. I deplore hunters WHEN they are hunting.

        The hunters here & elsewhere keep talking about quick kills where slow, agonizing deaths are not your agenda. That is not the case for all hunters that enjoy both aspects … the kill & horrific torture. Perhaps you’re not aware of the extreme statistics of animal abuse in number & method. I could then go further into some of the sickest humans on earth that work within windowless slaughterhouses, but that’s another chapter where you hunters could care less, & most of the rest of those against hunting already know all too well … thus, why most of us are vegan. To go into the health benefits is a course in itself which the animal folks call a win-win, & you hunters appear closed to some great information Andrew has provided, so back yet alone the moral is an entire course in itself & one So back to you, Justin.

        I also talked a bit in one of my posts here about hunter’s remorse. Those writings are also numerous out there on the web. You stated in an earlier post that you will not go to such a low place again. I was most curious about that low place & if you were experiencing any kind of your own personal remorse. I believe you did some soul searching & struggled to some degree. What else could you have meant by a low place you vow never to take it there again? That’s your private & personal trip, & of course, you’re not obliged to a living soul to share whatever that implied. Were you to at least make that admission that you even if momentarily did some soul searching, I won’t be able to rush back in here quick enough to admit I was wrong when I make the statement you’re not about to come share such an admission for either side of this fence. I am not challenging you & have no expectations that you will elaborate on whatever your low place intended. That did jump out at me & still does.

        I have exchanged more posts & comments in the company of hunters here the past few days than I have ever elsewhere at anytime or anyplace my entire life, & I’ve lived quite a few years now. I will go ahead & say what I’ve thought all along since reading your first post, Justin, that you have been the most courteous of the hunters, particularly in your earlier postings. I’m not blowing smoke up your yahoo for any reason other than to state an honest observation. I’m sure you could care less & have attempted to remove yourself from that low place whatever it was or wasn’t. Either way … I have no regret in making that statement which comes from my low place. With all the crap in this sick world happening to ALL living beings … two-legged, four-legged, feathered, scaled or otherwise, I live in that low place having to step around the edges as I can. Squirrel Slam is just one event that keeps me in that low place. That is my choice & price of having opened my eyes removing the blinders most people wear like a tight glove 24 & 7.

        I will remember these discussions probably all too long even more confused about the desires & fulfillment of hunting than ever just as most of you hunters are probably all the more floored over the depths of our disgust & dismay.

        If just one of you read anything or “hunted” on your own for information about how carnivores contribute to world hunger … that’s been explained & quite simple once the facts are presented, heard & understood. Too few look at the big picture or will ever believe that veganism is the cure. Not in my lifetime … if ever … & the world will increase by billions adding to more hunger if WE don’t change course & take off those blinders. Documentation is out there. Read what Andrew has offered or do your own research, & you don’t have to tell anyone if you do. Enough. Kay-suh-rah.

      2. This right here is my low place. I have been a meat eater my whole life, to me there is no other choice, vegetables are a side dish, and forever will be at my dinner table. I do not condone animal cruelty, of any kind. But I also do not see hunting as animal abuse, I know that confuses you, it confuses me. But it’s what I have known my whole life, and honestly I see no reason to change that, and that is my choice.

        I have said, I do respect yours and other decisions to not eat meat, but it doesn’t seem vegetarians or vegans respect my decision TO eat meat. I am looked down upon because of it, don’t try to say I’m not, because most of these posts say otherwise. We have had defend ourselves over all of this, not the other way around.

        1. Justin … I ate anything I wanted until August 29, 2009 when I became vegetarian. Through more education via my fellow activists about cruelties of the dairy world, that wasn’t enough, & I began the vegan transition throughout most of 2010.

          So I am judging you, Justin? Let me tell you that I am the lone vegan of any family member in my entire family, & many families have suffered great rifts over this sensitive topic. None of my peeps are even vegetarian. (I am impressed you listed both. A vast number of people don’t even know the difference, & a few years ago, neither did I). None of these family member will take off those blinders to educate themselves as I have done.

          I have struggled through some hardcore pits of hell videos that are not fictitious Hollywood creations. They are REAL & ghoulish. Pigs are dropped alive into boiling water. One person talked about whacking off the end of one pig’s nose & shoving saltpeter into his open snout & more into his anus laughing about the screaming & running amuck as if the poor pig were on fire. Prior to this vile act, the little pig had been clinging to the jerk’s leg shaking in fear by what was going on around him in an open arena. Downed cows are beaten to a pulp unable to do anything but lie there & moan for hours. OMG … I can go on & on & on & on & on but I won’t. These are only a few examples that are equally sinister & enraging. I’ve not been able to watch all of the videos & had to click off of many if not most. THIS IS MY LOW PLACE! I came very close to a frightening edge unable to erase the hell on earth that became permanently pounded into my head & heart. Somehow I pulled through, & knowing what I know, eating flesh is impossible. This is the proudest accomplishment of my life. Color me vegan the rest of my life.

          When asked if I’ve done this for health, I tell them no, but quickly add that the health benefits are automatic by default … a win-win for animals, the environment & me.

          A superb lady I know walked out of a hospital & told her doctor FU. She didn’t abbreviate. She opted to heal her cancer through veganism & a few other resources. Just recently she shared with me that she is free & clear without the poisonous chemo & searing radiation she refused to endure. Does everyone receive such a blessing? No. Just saying. The health benefits are such a fact of life … what a joy to experience them personally. Many have cured their own diabetes, & that’s nothing short of miraculous. I could also go on & on with this aspect, but again, I won’t.

          The vegan community that chose this path due to animal welfare only wishes that everyone could/would witness the information that I’ve spoken about & others here … Andrew in particular. These images & sounds of animals in such pain & agony …….. hundreds, thousands, millions throughout time. I have barely touched on these violations of a living being. When you carry these realities within you, the stories of animal abuse all over the news on TV & social media of such proportions such as setting a wagging, trusting puppy on fire! Again, I’m only scratching the surface of a sickness in this world so deep & wide … many of us exclaim how we grow ashamed to even be human. So for these reasons … we can’t talk all night on this … THAT is what makes us so sensitive to the killing of animals by hunting.

      3. Hi Justin,

        You wrote, “This right here is my low place. I have been a meat eater my whole life, to me there is no other choice, vegetables are a side dish, and forever will be at my dinner table. I do not condone animal cruelty, of any kind. But I also do not see hunting as animal abuse, I know that confuses you, it confuses me. But it’s what I have known my whole life, and honestly I see no reason to change that, and that is my choice.

        I have said, I do respect yours and other decisions to not eat meat, but it doesn’t seem vegetarians or vegans respect my decision TO eat meat. I am looked down upon because of it, don’t try to say I’m not, because most of these posts say otherwise. We have had defend ourselves over all of this, not the other way around.”

        Thank you for continuing the conversation even though you may not believe it is worthwhile. You might find it refreshing to know that I do not support some of the inflammatory comments on both sides of this thread. I’ve tried to be civil and to lead a productive conversation so we can better understand each other. I agree that name calling is pointless.

        Perhaps this will be a breakthrough for us and show you how sincere I am in my desire to learn more about the hunting culture. I deleted my “serial killer” comment because although it is a fact that many serial killers abused and killed animals before they tortured people, it is hyperbolic for the purpose of our discussion and it does not serve to bridge the gap between us or open our lines of communication. I agree that there is a difference between taking pleasure in torturing an animal for fun over an extended period of time and shooting an animal for food. I understand why you don’t classify shooting animals for food as “abuse” even though I disagree. You are correct in stating that teaching 14-year-olds to shoot animals does not necessarily mean they will become serial killers even though I disagree with young children shooting guns and the activity.

        Regarding your post above, of course, I’m sure you agree that there are other choices. Vegetarians eat a lot more than vegetables. Check out the website Veg Web if you’re interested in seeing some of the examples. You would be amazed at foods like Beyond Meat and Gardein that simulate the taste of chicken, steak, hamburger, etc. I am not telling you to eat these foods Justin. I’m just letting you know that people who eat plant-based foods don’t simply eat vegetables.

        You’ve got me all wrong Justin. I think you want me to be nasty so you can justify your hunting. I’m not going to do that. I’ve extended one olive branch after another to engage you and Steve in meaningful dilaogue. I have no interest in name-calling. It’s a waste of my time and yours. If you change your mind and you want to have a friendly discussion on my show, you have an open offer. You can call in from any location and if you find it isn’t friendly, you can hang up the phone. Give it some thought. I think it could be a terrific opportunity for us to help our respective communities learn more about each other.

  36. Steve and Justin – thanks (and I do mean that) for hanging in here and sharing your viewpoints. Although you probably won’t change any of our minds about hunting, and we’re not likely to change yours, the best we can do is to TRY to understand where we are all coming from. A few points I want to make:

    1. Most of us would not care at all what you do for entertainment if not for the fact that you are doing it at someone else’s expense. Yes, I said “someONE”, because we consider animals as their own beings, not belonging to us or for our use.

    2. Most of us are most definitely concerned with the wellbeing of humans also. In fact, we believe that all BEINGS are created equal, with equal rights to health and happiness. We don’t want children to starve – nor do we want them to have unhealthy diets. That is one reason we promote veganism – because eating plants takes a lesser toll on the environment than raising animals, and because science is proving more and more each day that foods made from animals are extremely unhealthy, particularly in the vast amounts Americans consume.

    3. We don’t like to see lives taken, especially “for fun” – hence the subject of this blog post. Perhaps it’s a difference in our upbringing, or maybe something different about the ways our brains work, but I don’t think any vegan could conceive of killing another living being as “fun.”

    4. Many of the posts on here have lashed out at you – please forgive us. It is extremely difficult to feel as we do and have to witness every day, and all over the place, dead animal bodies everywhere we turn. Just take a few minutes and watch some TV. In the space of half an hour, count how many times you see or hear of anything made from animals. Look around your house and see how much leather, wool, down, feathers, eggs, milk and meat you have. You are not alone. Almost everyone has as much. Most people don’t take notice. Vegans do. We are surrounded by the dead bodies of our friends constantly. That may seem silly to you, but it is our reality.

    5. If you have a few minutes, please watch this video. There are no spoken words, just images and music that will help you understand how we feel, and how much we love this Earth and all its inhabitants. I hope you will watch.

  37. Andrew I was thinking more of you right up to this statement “I’m sorry that you don’t value the lives of animals.” Who says I dont? You see, I despise when humans are cruel to animals. But in no way do I valu an animals life on the same level as a humans. Like I said before, there are bad people from ALL walks of life. I am not going to watch the videos put up here cause I see no sence in it. Afterall, its the internet and I am sure I can find documentation saying being a vegan is unhealthy for you. As far as your radio show, you have people like Janice on your side and she is, well uh, “nuts”. And yes, all the squirrels are used the day of the hfd fundraiser.

    Janice, well uh I hate to tell you this but you are “nuts”. Really, so because Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz and Jeffrey Dahmer were cruel to animals that must mean All hunters are serial killers? See Andrew, its statements like that, that shows her mentality state of mind. Keep fighting the fight sister and I for one am glad you are on thier side.

    Rebecca, now you seem level headed to me. We see things differently and that ok with me. But I believe we have the right to live how we choose without judging anyone else. We are not trying to get you to show up at a pro hunting rally and cheer us on, but are made to feel like our only option is to join your fight or be wrong.
    And let me ask you a question, if you come up on an accident from a car hitting a deer ok. In the ditch lays the deer, the backseat a bleeding baby. Who are you going to help first?

    Good man Justin, hold your ground.

    1. All right Steve, let me know if you change your mind. The offer has no expiration date.

      We will agree to disagree. I believe if you care about animals, you don’t shoot them — you allow them to live their natural lives as we live our own. We don’t need to eat animals to survive. You state your despise people who are cruel to animals yet you are shooting and killing them Steve. I hope one day you see the hypocrisy in that statement. For whatever it’s worth, I used to say the same thing (“I love animals” while I was eating them).

    2. Predictable Steve. Already said you’d have something to say no matter what I come back with. Who said ALL in that article? You’re a rude piece of work. I’m nuts? You can talk about my mental state? Okay. Whatever dude. Have a really superb day. Bye-bye. 😀

      1. Nuts might not be the right word for it, maybe unbalanced? I understand everyone’s stance on animal abuse. But what no one seems to get is there is a big difference between animal abuse and hunting. I mean seriously, if hunting was considered animal abuse then the SPCA and all other animal organizations would be all over every state DEC demanding they close all hunting seasons. Even the humane society knows there is a difference between the two. Janice, you obviously don’t. Those serial killers you mentioned, they did not hunt, they tortured and killed. So therefor your statement is a falsehood. There is NO link between being A HUNTER and becoming a mass murderer, not like you describe.

        The other point I brought up, that no one had anything to say about, is the fact that Adolph Hitler was himself a vegetarian, if not vegan.

        1. So we finally agree, Justin. Steve says I am nuts, & you suggested I am merely unbalanced. YES in both instances. 100% correct. How “nuts” & “unbalanced” was I to think sharing my emotional struggles transitioning from carnivore to vegetarian to vegan could have been comprehended? You have spoken quite a bit about being judged, Justin, & now you both judge me with most unsavory labels.

          I will continue to share my story with those who come to me with wide-eyed awe as if I’m something of a saint because I am vegan & help them anyway I can when they are curious, willing & ready to follow suit.

          As for here, I am removing myself from further discussion, for I am done speaking to voids between the ears with closed minds stuck in your groove, & we stuck in ours. None of you will even man up & accept the gracious invite from Andrew to do his radio show, he being one of the nicest people you could ever meet. We’ve tried & tried & tried … we’ve said in our own words much of what is quoted below by some of the greatest minds & highly successful people in the world. Many if not most are vegetarian or vegan, & a good number of these extraordinary people have also been called “nuts” & deemed “unbalanced,” so you’ve placed me in great company. Thanks! On my way out, I’ll just go feed my nutty, unbalanced self to some squirrels. They LOVE nuts. Ciao


          May our daily choices be a reflection of our deepest values, and may we use our voices to speak for those who need us most, those who have no voice, those who have no choice.”
          ― Colleen Patrick-Goudreau, Vegan’s Daily Companion: 365 Days of Inspiration for Cooking, Eating, and Living Compassionately

          It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.
          —Albert Einstein (1879–1955)

          A human being is a part of the whole, called by us the “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separate from the rest – a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.
          —Albert Einstein (1879–1955)

          As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
          —Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

          When a human being kills an animal for food, he is neglecting his own hunger for justice. Man prays for mercy, but is unwilling to extend it to others. Why then should man expect mercy from God? It is unfair to expect something that you are not willing to give.
          —Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

          The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.
          —Charles Darwin, English naturalist (1809–1882)

          The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea of “real food for real people,” you’d better live real close to a real good hospital.
          —Neal D. Barnard, MD, President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

          About 2,000 pounds of grains must be supplied to livestock in order to produce enough meat and other livestock products to support a person for a year, whereas 400 pounds of grain eaten directly will support a person for a year. Thus, a given quantity of grain eaten directly will feed 5 times as many people as it will if it is eaten indirectly by humans in the form of livestock products.…
          —M.E. Ensminger, PhD

          I don’t hold animals superior or even equal to humans. The whole case for behaving decently to animals rests on the fact that we are the superior species. We are the species uniquely capable of imagination, rationality, and moral choice – and that is precisely why we are under an obligation to recognize and respect the rights of animals.
          —Brigid Brophy (1929–1995)

          The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man.
          —Charles Darwin, English naturalist (1809–1882)

          Wild animals never kill for sport. Man is the only one to whom the torture and death of his fellow creatures is amusing in itself.
          —James A. Froude, English historian (1818–1894)

          If you visit the killing floor of a slaughterhouse, it will brand your soul for life.
          —Howard Lyman, author of Mad Cowboy

          A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral.
          —Leo Tolstoy, Russian novelist (1828–1910)

          Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the death of others. We are burial places.
          —Leonardo Da Vinci (1452–1519)

          “I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of animals as they now look upon the murder of men.”
          ― Dmitry Merezhkovsky, Romance of Leonard Da Vinci

          Now I can look at you in peace; I don’t eat you anymore.
          —Franz Kafka, while admiring fish in an aquarium

          Poor animals! How jealously they guard their pathetic bodies…that which to us is merely an evening’s meal, but to them is life itself.
          —T. Casey Brennan (1948–)

          Can you really ask what reason Pythagoras had for abstaining from flesh? For my part I rather wonder both by what accident and in what state of soul or mind the first man did so, touched his mouth to gore and brought his lips to the flesh of a dead creature, he who set forth tables of dead, stale bodies and ventured to call food and nourishment the parts that had a little before bellowed and cried, moved and lived. How could his eyes endure the slaughter when throats were slit and hides flayed and limbs torn from limb? How could his nose endure the stench? How was it that the pollution did not turn away his taste, which made contact with the sores of others and sucked juices and serums from mortal wounds?… It is certainly not lions and wolves that we eat out of self-defense; on the contrary, we ignore these and slaughter harmless, tame creatures without stings or teeth to harm us, creatures that, I swear, Nature appears to have produced for the sake of their beauty and grace. But nothing abashed us, not the flower-like tinting of the flesh, not the persuasiveness of the harmonious voice, not the cleanliness of their habits or the unusual intelligence that may be found in the poor wretches. No, for the sake of a little flesh we deprive them of sun, of light, of the duration of life to which they are entitled by birth and being.

          As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love.

          It ill becomes us to invoke in our daily prayers the blessings of God, the Compassionate, if we in turn will not practice elementary compassion towards our fellow creatures.
          —Mahatma Gandhi (1869–1948)

          “To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being.”
          ― Mahatma Gandhi

          “Animals are my friends…and I don’t eat my friends.”
          ― George Bernard Shaw

          “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
          ― Mahatma Gandhi

          “The assumption that animals are without rights, and the illusion that our treatment of them has no moral significance, is a positively outrageous example of Western crudity and barbarity. Universal compassion in the only guarantee of morality.”
          ― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

          “If slaughterhouses had glass walls, the whole world would be vegetarian.”
          ― Linda McCartney, Linda’s Kitchen: Simple and Inspiring Recipes for Meals Without Meat

          “Perhaps in the back of our minds we already understand, without all the science I’ve discussed, that something terribly wrong is happening. Our sustenance now comes from misery. We know that if someone offers to show us a film on how our meat is produced, it will be a horror film. We perhaps know more than we care to admit, keeping it down in the dark places of our memory– disavowed. When we eat factory-farmed meat we live, literally, on tortured flesh. Increasingly, that tortured flesh is becoming our own.”
          ― Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals

          “Needless to say, jamming deformed, drugged, overstressed birds together in a filthy, waste-coated room is not very healthy. Beyond deformities, eye damage, blindness, bacterial infections of bones, slipped vertebrae, paralysis, internal bleeding, anemia, slipped tendons, twisted lower legs and necks, respiratory diseases, and weakened immune systems are frequent and long-standing problems on factory farms.”
          ― Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals

          “We know, at least, that this decision (ending factory farming) will help prevent deforestation, curb global warming, reduce pollution, save oil reserves, lessen the burden on rural America, decrease human rights abuses, improve publish health, and help eliminate the most systematic animal abuse in history.”
          ― Jonathan Safran Foer, Eating Animals

          “I ask people why they have deer heads on their walls. They always say because it’s such a beautiful animal. There you go. I think my mother is attractive, but I have photographs of her.”
          ― Ellen DeGeneres

    3. Steve, I don’t understand what you are getting at with your question: “if you come up on an accident from a car hitting a deer ok. In the ditch lays the deer, the backseat a bleeding baby. Who are you going to help first?”

      What does that have to do with the discussion we’re having?

      1. Obviously, Steve wants to know if you put the value of animal life over human. Because you would have us put an animals life be fire ours.
        Eating meat and hunting are obviously a way of life, why should we decrease what we see as value in our life by putting an animal before our own needs? Yes, YOU don’t need meat to survive, but we do, because that’s what we eat.

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